“How do I make a liquid lipstick?”
This post is going to disclose all the secrets to make a matte long lasting liquid lipstick from scratch.
The info I‘ll provide is also a great starting point to learn how to make liquid lipstick at home and for fun.
At the end of the post, I will also show you which ingredient provides the smudge proof effect and how you can easily control it.
NOTE: the market for liquid lipsticks is highly competitive and close to saturation.
To be successful, you need a lipstick that stands out. The variety of formulations and shades is almost comprehensive. For this reason, I do not recommend to start a new beauty line with liquid lipstick as the first product.
I do not intend to discourage you, I’m simply offering honest advice. If you still want to pursue it, make sure you have an awesome marketing team and, of course, an adequate budget.
You can find almost all the ingredients you need on the internet or you can purchase a base and add the pigments to create your custom shades.
With so many liquid lipsticks on the market, it’s no surprise to see they have many ingredients in common.
After talking with hundreds of people, I realized one of the highest rated lipstick is the Jeffree Star- Velour.
It is a vegan and long-lasting lipstick. It’s not completely smudge-proof, but this is a plus as it doesn’t dry out your lips.
I‘ve never worked for Jeffree Star nor have any kind of relationship with this company. What I am going to write is merely based on my experience, intuition, and knowledge as a cosmetic chemist.
PRO TIP: To improve the performance of any lipstick, use a lip scrub before application.
How to make a liquid lipstick- The Ingredients
JS liquid lipstick ingredients — Click here
NOTE: there’s no guarantee the ingredients list you find on the producer’s website is the actual one, but it should list the key ingredients.
Isododecane. Is the solvent (carrier) you’ll find in 90% of the lipsticks out there. It is a volatile, colorless and odorless liquid.
Horrible (but cheaper) alternatives are paraffin/mineral oil. Better ones are some volatile silicones (for example trisiloxane, Cyclopentasiloxane or dimethicone).
Isododecane in a liquid lipstick formula is around 60%-65% and provides a non-tacky feeling while also minimizing the color transfer.
Trimethylsiloxysilicate: it’s responsible for the long-lasting, waterproof effect as film forming agent. Its % goes from about 10% up to 20%. Do not go way over 20% or you’ll get a lipstick that crumbles. Trimethylsiloxysilicate is highly soluble in isododecane.
Dimethicone contributes to the waterproof effect and acts as both film-forming and emollient. Its concentration varies from 16 to 20%.
Dimethicone belongs to the silicones class and it’s often used in liquid lipsticks for its emollient and waterproof properties .
Kaolin: opacifying and mattifying agent.
Synthetic Beeswax it’s used as a thickening agent at around 4%. Not all liquid lipsticks have waxes that are put in them. Fumed silica act as thickening agent, too. If you decide to use wax, do not put too much or the lipstick will be sticky.
Cyclopentasiloxane, Disteardimonium Hectorite, and Propylene Carbonate: three ingredients that are sold as a unique product called BENTONE GEL® VS-5PC V HV. In the U.S it’s distributed by DD Chemco (See details here). Cyclopentasiloxane is a volatile silicone.
This gel acts as:
-Viscosity increasing agent.
-Suspending agent (you need something that keeps your pigments suspended, or after a few days you’ll find them at the bottom of the bottle).
-Enhances skin feel.
You can incorporate Bentone Gel in the formula at around 5%. You must use a medium or high-shear mixer. You’ll see chunks at first. Do not proceed until all the chunks have been dissolved.
I know some of you don’t have a business address (yet! ) and thus don’t have access to ulprospector.com to request samples. As mentioned in my raw material report, most likely you’ll still be able to receive samples if you contact the company directly, and provide your UPS or FedEx account #.
If you really can’t find this ingredient, no worries. There’s a very close one here
Hydrogenated Polyisobutene enhances color shine and acts as emollient. I would use it in a lipgloss rather than matte lipstick.
Silica Dimethyl Silylate is a fumed silica that has been treated with a silicone.
-It prevents the pigments from “bleeding” into the lines of the lips.
– By increasing the viscosity of the formula, It prevents pigments from settling.
-It provides optimal pigments stability and water resistance.
Tocopheryl Acetate (vitamin E) is an antioxidant. It’s needed for stability or marketing reasons. Usually, you can’t go wrong by adding it at a 0.2%.
Hydrogen Dimethicone ensures adherence to the skin. It’s a difficult ingredient to source and not necessary.
Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate it’s a UV adsorber and prevents shades variations besides protecting your lips.
Ethylhexylglycerin has a bacteriostatic (limits bacteria reproduction) and moisturizing effect. Due to a synergistic effect, the dosage of the preservative can be reduced when this ingredient is present. Unnecessary in this kind of products.
Caprylyl Glycol, Hexylene Glycol, Phenoxyethanol is a preservative known as Lexgard HPO. A liquid lipstick, being an oil-based formulation, doesn’t require a preservative. I’ve formulated lipsticks with no preservative that were able to pass stability, pet and microbiological tests. However, remember that not adding a preservative could make you lose customers.
How to make a liquid lipstick-other common ingredients
–Nylon12. It’s used to increase payoff and texture.
–Synthetic Fluorphlogopite. It helps with the mattifying effect. Can replace talc, kaolin and similar.
–Polypropylsilsesquioxane: you’ll often find it in association with trimethylsiloxysilicate. It provides a silky smooth feel.
–Polyethylene: acts as a binder and increases hardness and slip.
–Trihydroxystearin is a thickening agent that can replace wax. Having a lower melting point, it can benefit volatile ingredients such as Cyclopentasiloxane (less heating required than waxes). Trihydroxystearin is a naturally derived (modified hydrogenated Castor Oil).
liquid lipstick: what are other common ingredients?
Liquid lipstick formula
Finally, it’s time to write down a formula.
This step might be tricky if you don’t have any formulation knowledge, but don’t worry because you can simply copy this one. I have eliminated some ingredients and added some others.
This is just a general formula that will definitely work, but of course, it can be further improved and customized. My goal here is to leave you some practical advice.
Bentone Gel 5%
Synthetic Fluorphlogopite 3%
Synthetic Beeswax 2%
Fumed Silica 2.5%
Tocopheryl Acetate 0.2%
Caprylyl Glycol, Hexylene Glycol, Phenoxyethanol 0.2%
You’ll want to add pigments at the end to obtain your favorite shades. When making those shades, even a 0.01% variation can make a huge difference, so you really want to have an accurate scale. If you’re uncertain on what to buy, Ohaus is an excellent brand (this, in particular, has a readability of 0.01g and 200g capacity).
For the shades, I suggest you use iron oxides as a starting point as they’re easy to handle and give a very noticeable, strong coloration. Here you can find a great selection of pigments.
A huge variety of pigments can be used to make liquid lipstick
Create a successful cosmetic business.
If you want to slightly modify the formula, don’t pay obsessive attention to the overall sum of the ingredients (that should yield 100% ) nor to the preservative. You can fix those details later, usually by adjusting the isododecane.
Instead, focus on the 3 key ingredients and try to find the best ratio (= the one that works best for you). The 3 key ingredients are trimethylsiloxysilicate, Bentone gel and dimethicone.
Feel free to leave out the preservative from your calculation as well. You might not even want to use it.
To make everything easier, start by making 100g of product.
By doing this, you don’t have to make any calculations with the ingredients. It’s straightforward. If the formula says 60% isododecane, the weight is 60 g. It’s that simple!
Need to purchase beakers, scale or other stuff? Take a look at this post.
Weigh the isododecane in a beaker and add the trimethylsiloxysilicate. It will dissolve easily.
Add the dimethicone and then the Benton gel. To exert its full potential, the Benton gel needs to be dispersed using a high shear mixer (this one is perfect).
Add the vitamin E and the preservative (if using it).
Add the fumed silica. This step is very important, fumed silica must be properly dispersed to exert its function. You should be using a high shear mixer and mix for at least 30 minutes. If you don’t have a high shear mixer, don’t use the fumed silica. Increase the wax by 2% instead.
Add the wax, melt it, and let it cool down while stirring.
Add the pigments while always mixing. If the mixing of the pigments becomes too difficult after adding the pigments, it’s possible to add them right before the wax when the viscosity is lower.
The most difficult thing when making a liquid lipstick is to achieve the perfect balance between a long-lasting effect and a comfortable wear. There’s no silver bullet for this. My suggestion is to try as many combinations as you can.
When you increase the trimethylsiloxysilicate, you’re aiming at making a completely smudge-proof, waterproof product. The liquid lipstick will form a hydrophobic film on your skin that gives a drying feel. This kind of lipstick usually has a very short list of ingredients, I would say 6 or 7 plus the colorants (for example this one).
How to remove liquid lipstick
To remove even the most stubborn lipstick, an oil-based remover is your only chance.
When I say oil-based, I don’t necessarily mean oils such as olive oil, coconut oil etc.
From a chemical point of view, what matters, is to use a low polarity substance ( for instance isododecane or Cyclopentasiloxane)
If you look at this bestseller make-up remover, you’ll see that it contains Cyclopentasiloxane and isohexadecane (which is very similar to isododecane).
Don’t wait. Start your own cosmetic line now! Work with us here at Luisa Fanzani and get a consultation for what you need, or buy from our pre-formulated options in our shop!
Have you ever tried to formulate a liquid lipstick? Which one is your favorite? Let me know in the comments section below
102 thoughts on “[Formulation] How to make a liquid lipstick (long lasting and waterproof)”
When using kaolin in this formula, when should it be added in the formulation sequence.
Thank you for your comment. You can add the kaolin at the end, right before the pigments.
Hi, thank you do much , your write up about lipstick is a masterpiece. Thank you so much.
I read all I needed to know about making my own lipstick and am super.
Please contact me for more details. X
When using a polybutene ingredient, which viscosity is used, thinner or thicker?
You can use both. If you use the one with higher viscosity, you might want to adjust (decrease ) the % of the thickening agent a bit.
When using Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, what stage can I incorporate it?
Add it to the oil phase along with other oil soluble ingredients. It can be heated up to approximately 85C degrees.
first I want to thank you for useful tips for formulation lipstick.
second is there any alternative for
– trimethyl siloxy silicate
Thanks! cyclomethicone and/or cyclopentasiloxane can replace isododecane. Polypropylsilsesquioxane can replace trimethylsiloxysilicate.
Hi, can you please tell me the good ingredients I need to make a Matt lipstick my self. Thank you!
Hi Amanda, read the article.
Hi Ms.Luisa, I just want to ask the percentage of
to provide a matte and transferproof lip cream?
It’s impossible to tell. I don’t even know what you’re trying to make.
Is there a particular website or place you typically purchase these ingredients from? I have found a few ingredients online but everything is at different stores. I was wondering if there is just one or two places all the ingredients could be purchased from.
as far as I remember makingcosmetics.com has all of them.
Hello! my lip ink is too watery. my friends want to buy some from me but request to have a thicker consistency. what ingredient should i add?
I should see the formula but as you can read in the article beeswax can increase the viscosity.
Can i add aloe vera or carrier oil to this formula?
No, aloe vera is water soluble and won’t work. Carrier oils won’t work as well because they will make the lipstick smudge.
i know jefree star is the most popular but the formula is dry and crumbles easily,hes a social media star so it will be popular,sephora matte lip cream is amazing that would be an amazing for you to break down
Thank you for the comment. You might be right. I’m more specialized in skincare now and aren’t really aware of what is going on in the makeup world.
Hi Luisa! Thanks for all the information on this page. I know this is not the topic of the post but I wonder if you know if there is a safe way to convert a lipstick into a liquid matte lipstick?
No. Because traditional lipstick is solid, liquid lipstick is liquid. Clearly they have two different formulas. Or maybe I didn’t understand your question…
Thank you for the valuable information. Great job
Keep it up.
Thank you so much for the encouraging words and thank you for reading!
Good day ,
Love the formula was wondering if you can come up with a creamy liquid lipstick formula to follow?
Thanks for sharing useful information, Please share some more information about Bentone gel, its ingredients and procedure of manufacturing.
Thank you! There are different kinds of bentone gel and composition is different. I would suggest contacting the supplier/distributor DD Chemco or subscribing to ulprospector.com/personalcare to find info needed.
Luisa buongiorno, complimenti per il sito.
Ho provato questa formulazione. La trovo molto buona e performante.
Una sola cosa: come può essere possibile che aggiungendo i pigmenti, su alcuni colori, dopo qualche ora ho una separazione di isododecano?
Da notare che la base, prima di essere colorata, si presenta perfettamente omogenea anche dopo giorni.
Grazie in anticipo.
Hi Luca, it’s probably because you don’t use enough suspending agent. It also depends on the pigments you’re using.
Love the formula just but what I really want to know is how do you make a creamy liquid lipstick Instead of a matte liquid lipstick ?
Not sure what you mean. The matte liquid lipstick describes has a creamy texture.
No I meaning I know it’s matte but I would love to make one that is not matte
it would be a lipgloss rather than a lipstick. This formula is for lipstick.
Luisa, great information! Is it possible to tweak the formula and make a gloss required lip color where the lip gloss works to seal in the lip color instead of it being a true matte lipstick?
Yes, but the tweaks would be so many that you actually have to create another formula. Lipgloss and lipstick are 2 completely different formulations.
Hello, I have been adding Siliconyl Polyethylene to my lip gloss base by melting in the microwave, however shortly after mixing in, it begins to solidify in small chunks. How do I mix properly?
The base needs to be at the same temperature when you add the ethylene wax.
What is a good substitution for Bentone Gel
So glad to have found you. Like you I answer questions on Quora. I’m hoping to draw a little attention to myself so that I can make pocket change now that I have stopped working for good. I hope Quora has been good to you. I’m overjoyed to have found your site. Everything you’ve said about reading ingredients, and all the rest, I’ve known for years. But what I’ve never been able to figure out is what actually works. Your common sense answer makes me feel confident. I’m waiting for my severance pay and you can believe I will be using your product. At 59 years old, I’m pretty lucky. I never wore very much makeup, especially not foundations and powders. Usually a little mascara and some lip gloss. I smoked from age 16 to age 32. But I suspect with my fair skin and too much exposure to the sun, I have those horrible vertical lines on my upper lip (more above it). I’m lucky, I’ve seen much worse. But still, my lips were never super full and now I feel like I have dried up flaps (at least the upper lip). I’m hoping to get any results. I might be exaggerating because I’m so self conscious about them…to make matters worse I used to have a tiny small mole under my bottom lip that has decided to grow a bit. Yes, I’ve had it checked out. Just old age striking again. But it’s much closer to my bottom lip and so between the wrinkles and dryness, I can’t wear hardly any lipstick or even just tinted chapstick between my upper lip thinness and the lipstick has no where to go but in those vertical lines. On the bottom lip it seems to run down to the mole emphasizing it. I might as well go ahead and just add some to the mole because somehow the lipstick always creeps down there. I’d say there is less than two hair widths between the mole and lip so it takes an act of courage to hold my hand still enough to draw the line and not hit the mole. Anyway, long, long, long story not short…I only saw the 2-3 products on your website. I was hoping perhaps you could steer me to a few of your clients who have succeeded in following your methods and need a “tester”. Of course, I would pay retail costs…just thought maybe they would like someone with difficult lips to try and give feedback. Cheers!
Thank you! Will keep your offer in mind!
Hi! I’m just a student from Philippines and I want to start a cosmetic business. I just want to ask why doesn’t your formula has titanium dioxide? I thought it was necessary. I also want to know what is the purpose of anti-oxidant agents? And if Vitamin E is a great moisturizer, why can’t I add more? Thank you!
Vitamin E is used as antioxidant. You can add more if you want , but the product might come out too sticky. Titanium dioxide is included in the colorants. I provided the formula for the base.
Very informative, I like your content 🙂
Hello! I have been researching cosmetic formulas for a while now, and I am very interested in purchasing the ingredients needed to start making some of my own! Thank you so much for all of the info posted here, Luisa. I have a few questions
-On makingcosmetics.com , there is a matte liquid lipstick kit that you can purchase. It comes with a pre-mixed base, and colorants. Is the reason their kit does not require a high shear mixer because all of the ingredients that would need to be blended together using the mixer…is already done to create the base?
-I cannot afford a high shear mixer at this time. Is there any alternative way to make your formula, or ANY formula, without one? Is there a cheaper substitute? and, if there is NOT…Can I buy the base mixture from makingcosmetics, and tweak their formula by adding various percentages of the ingredients listed in YOUR formulation?
I’m really excited about diving in and trying some things out, but my lack of high shear mixer is causing me to question what is actually achievable or not. can you help me?
I went on makingcosmetics.com to take a look at the kit. It looks like it’s on the liquid side. If you can’t even afford the mixer I posted in the other comment, your only possibility is to use kitchen mixing tools. Result won’t be the same, but you can always upgrade in the future.
Hello, I posted a comment on here earlier but it seems to have been erased.
I’m wanting to start experimenting with making my own cosmetics, and I just saw you on the episode regarding the makeup industry on the Netflix show “Broken”. I’m so glad I found you!
I cannot afford a high shear mixer at this time, as I am only just beginning my journey into makeup production. I have found some kits on other websites that all include a pre made base, which is why I assume they do not talk about needing to blend anything with a high shear mixer. My question is:
-Can I adjust the pre made bases and formulas I purchase from somewhere else with some of the ingredients from your formula in order to change the consistency etc?
-Is there any alternative to the high shear mixer since I cannot afford one? I would love to be able to experiment with formulas from scratch, like the one you provided above!
any help would be greatly appreciated!
Hi John! The premade bases are a great idea. However, you’ll need a mixer to disperse the pigments. There are some inexpensive ones which are okay for beginners…for example this one https://amzn.to/2RrqVav
I was wondering what is the alternative to BENTONE GEL® VS-5PC V HV please? The link is no longer working.
Thank you so much for this break down. I have a question and hopefully you can find the time to answer. When it came to the Trimethylsiloxysilicate, I was not able to find it on makingcosmetics.com, I was however able to find “Silicone Resin” which the INCI Name is “Trimethylsiloxysilicate, polypropyl silsesquioxane” will I be able to use this? Additionally, the Dimethicone that I purchased was “Dimethicone fluid” (again from makingcosmetics.com) and I want to make sure I purchased the correct one. The reason I asked is when I made the liquid lipstick with your ingredient above it came out too “watery”. So I want to make sure I have the correct products.
Ingredients are correct. To build viscosity it’s very important to fully disperse the thickening ingredients using a proper mixer.
I will try again. Thank you.
Hi Luisa i have a liquid matte base, but dos not looks matte. the ingredients are
Dimethicone Crosspolymer,Oryza Sativa (Rice) Bran Extract, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Isododecane, Cyclopentasiloxane, Hydrogenated Polyisobutene, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Extract, Trimethylsiloxysilicate, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Extract, Silica, Aluminum Silicate, Beeswax, Polymethylsilsesquioxane, Disteardimonium Hectorite, Tocopherol (Vitamin E),Propylene Carbonate.
What can i do?
What pigments are you using?
Thank you for your reply the other day. I got a new mixer and it worked great. Thank you so much for that!! The consistency and the color payoff is now very much wonderful. I am going through another issue and I hope you can walk me through it. I have for the most part followed very closely to your ingredient. One thing that I am noticing is when it is dry and my lips are pursed together, the pigment from the top of my lip transfers over to the bottom. Is there something that I can add to make it more transfer proof or maybe one of the ingredients I can adjust?
Hello! Love the article!
When adding the synthetic beeswax, should it be melted prior to adding? Or should I put the ingredients over heat? In this case, is there a maximum temperature or a limit?
When adding flavoring, when should this step be done?
Yes, you should melt it. Flavoring is the last step.
The tip that you gave me worked very well. I went out and bought myself a new mixer. Thank you very much! I do have one more question about the liquid lipstick I’m having issue with it transferring. For example, when it dries and the lips are pursed together… the top lip pigments will get stuck from the top to the bottom of the lip or vice versa. Is there anything I can adjust (assuming that I’m following your ingredients correctly) to help it be more transfer proof or long wearing?
you need to adjust the trimethylsiloxysilicate %.
Hello i wanted to ask is artificial flavorings and extract safe to consume and eat? i asked because there is alot of information in the internet but you cant always trust whats on the internet and honestly i just want to know the truth thank you for the information
Hi, I think it’s important to use common sense. How much is your daily intake of these flavorings? Probably not that high – It is not going to pose a threat to your health.
Thank you so much for your willingness to share your knowledge. I have made what feels like 10000 variations of this formula, adjusting % and adding hydrogenated polyisobutene hoping to get a result that has a bit more of a plump feeling on the lip and a slightly tacky but wear-proof finish as the standard formula seems to feel a bit too dry on my lip and sometimes cracks. I have added polyisobutene but then had the issue of pigment transferring between top and bottom on the sides of my lip. Do you have any suggestions for me to try? Should i also be increasing the trimethyloxysilicate % when adding the polyisobutene or will that continure to give me the completely dry finish that i am trying to get away from? Thank you in advance!
I wouldn’t add polyisobutene at all. Polyisobutene is for lipgloss which has a different formulation.
hi thank you so much for this, i have been researching for an entire week. would you please tell me if this would make a good matte liquid lipstick: Bentone gel ISD V, isododecane, polymethylsilsequioxane, trimethylsilxysilicate, trihydroxystearin, beeswax, carnauba wax, tapioca starch, shae butter, olive oil, glycerin, tocopheryl acetate
I don’t know as you don’t state % of each ingredient. Definitely glycerin shouldn’t be there because it is water soluble and you don’t have any water.
I’ve mixed my pigments and got the colour I want before I mix in the base. But when I mix in the base the colur changes What can i use to stabilise the colours? are there colours that shd come before or after. eg I’ve noticed the oxides are v powerful even in small measure once i out them in the base.
Simply adjust the color once mixed with the base.
Thank you Luisa. Also what are the main reasons the lipstick wont matte however much isododecane you put in?
it also depends on the pigments. If you use mica, it won’t matte
If mica will not make it matte, is there any other alternative? A noob here 🙂
Mica will make it matte
thank you for your “recipe”. What kind of Tixogel do you mean? Is Tixogel VZ also possible ( instead of Betone Gel)? It is a thickener for oil colours and I am wandering, if I could use it instead. All in all it is a challenge for me to find the right combination between all of the incrediences you mentioned above:). Until now I have used a mixture of Olivem 900 and Ceralan instead of Betone Gel, and Kaolin instead of Fluorphlogopite. Unfortunately I had three times problems of pigment transferring between top and bottom on the sides of my lips and the colour crumbled. Isododecan or Dimethicone, I do not know which of them, swam on the surface.
All in all it is a challenge for me to find the right combination between all of the incrediences you mentioned above:), but I won’t give up.
Kind regards from Germany
Tixogel works as well. Don’t use olivem 900 , you don’t need an emulsifier as there’s no water in the formula.
thanks a lot for you help. I thought that Olivem 900 could also helps a little bit to “carry” the pigments, because I haven’t had Tixogel at this trial. Indeed, Olivem 900 is only useful with water, did not think about it!!:)..Thank you!
Yes, you definitely need the tixogel
Can heat the substances on the kitchen stove ? I don’t have the double heater
excellent explanation done by luisa thanks
Hi this information is very helpful. I want to know if i can use either sun flower oil or avocado oil instead of mineral oil? Im planning to use this as an alternative for isododecane because those oils are more cheaper than isododecane. Thank you in advance for your response. ????
Those won’t work. isododecane is lightweight and helps with the spreading. Those botanical oils will only make the product greasy and not long lasting 🙁
Hello Luisa, are there any other alternatives to bentone gel/tixogel? Something that is easier to get..
Not if you want to use the formula I provided.
This is amazing, though I see now that my task is daunting! Then you so much for sharing your knowledge so freely and so kindly responding to everyone. This article is a masterwork of skill sharing.
Thanks a lot!
Hi I added 22% trimethylsiloxysilicate in my formulation and my liptick is still smudging and I didnot use any courier oil
How can I email you to send my formulation ???
And btw its giving me a total matte and I added 6% kaolin clay do i need to increase it ?
Its not giving me a total matte effect I mean
I can’t help you without any information on ingredients you’re using.
What is the best replacement for bentone gel? I can’t find it here in ph.
Hi Luis! Are these ingredients or this lipstick formula can be used on cheeks? Also, which part should I add for falvouring or for scent? Oil be will be fine?
I’m not sure I understand the question…clearly any cosmetic ingredient can be used on cheeks.
Hi Luisa, thank you so much for sharing your skills.
I was wondering if the final mixture can be heating in a microwave with flammable solvent such as isododecane.
I would like to liquefy the mixture (which is creamy) to facilitate the filling in packaging.
Can you please advise?
I’ve never tried it, but it should be fine if done gradually.
Which product do you recommend starting out with if not lipstick?